The site you are reading this from was at one time a nutrition blog. It’s been discontinued for some time now, and I was looking for a place to post this, so I decided here would do fine.
My reason for posting this is to gather information and feedback, and learn what I can so I can improve the situations I’ve been facing, in regards to dating. While support and understanding are nice, and it’s undeniable that explaining my experience will most likely also be therapeutic in a way, what I’m hoping for here is guidance. Ultimately, right now, I am totally and completely at a loss, and it seems the more research I put into this issue, the more lost I get. I’m not able to reconcile the vast differences between my experience and everyone else’s, and my effort to find answers seems to be worsening this discrepancy, rather than improving it.
As said in the title, I’m a male-to-female (MtF) transgender woman, and I’m also lesbian. I’ve been living full time as a woman almost exactly 3 years to this day. In that time, my life has been almost completely devoid of any intimacy, and it certainly isn’t for lack of trying. Over the years, I’ve repeatedly tried, and failed, to get anything beyond a second date, much less a girlfriend or a steady partner. I’ve certainly never gone as far as kissing.
Shots at Online Dating
At one time I had around 5 dating profiles, including OKCupid, Plenty of Fish, Craigslist ads, and a few others. For OKCupid and Plenty of Fish in particular, in all, I probably sent out over a thousand messages, and only ever received a handful of replies. I would need to send out 50 or 60 before I got even one response. I tried dozens of profile rewrites, and watched instructional guides on how to write a profile, but nothing changed. I did mange to get around 15 or so dates. Of these, 6 of them – consecutively – failed to show up.
The few that actually did show up were generally ones who dressed up their online profiles with terms like “sex positive”, “touch positive”, “kink positive”, and always said they were looking for casual sex. So to be honest, I had expected at least *something* to happen in the direction of intimacy! Like, hand touching, flirting, getting winked at, or something (I mean if you’re *SEX* positive, you’d expect at least that, right?) But when we went out, they’d sit across from me, usually not making eye contact, speak in a flat tone with very little emotional affect, shy and withdrawn, talk about extremely mundane things, maybe order a sandwich, and then leave, usually with only a handshake, if that, and then never contacted me again. In total I only had a few dates, since out of the thousand or so I messaged, extremely few ever replied, almost no one ever messaged me first, and nearly half of the ones who agreed to go out wouldn’t show up. So I don’t have a lot of experience to draw from, but I became confused as to what “sex positive” means, if this is what it looks like on a date.
I’ve recently joined a sex positive group, because their meetup page seemed to have a rather detailed explanation of what that word means. I’ve been attending this meetup for a while, but more on that in a bit.
I’ll speak more about myself in a moment, but usually around this time, I understandably get questions about what I must be doing on these dates. Am I doing something, and am not aware of it? I’m actually a mental health specialist, and am a well respected member of my team at the facility where I work. I designed and teach classes on social skills and social interaction for people with persistent mental disabilities, and I’ve also given talks on how to engage people publicly, and assert one’s needs without invalidating the other person. The courses and materials I’ve written come from evidence-based psychology. Added to that, I’m also a former marketing executive, so even before going into mental health, I was familiar with how the mind and emotions work from the perspective of advertising.
Moreover, I have lots of straight friends, guy friends, friends at work, and I’m the woman people often come to when they need advice. That makes this puzzle all the more frustrating to solve, as I honestly can’t figure it out.
To deal with most dates not showing up, and the dates that do show up being so extremely withdrawn, I decided to stop trying that method, and went on meetups.com instead. This allows you to find social meetups all around the city where you live. That way, I know for certain that people are definitely going to show up, and there’s a better chance of meeting someone. It just seems like a more efficient method. But this hasn’t worked either.
At any given lesbian meetup, I’ll speak to someone for 2 minutes (often times less than a minute), and they seem to get scared off. Admittedly I’ve only gotten feedback a few times, but from what I’ve been told, I’m somehow “overwhelming” and “intimidating”. I put those in quotation marks because I can’t for the life of me see how I’m either of those things. Here’s a little about myself and my background.
About Myself
I specialized in biomechanics for 10 years, nutrition science for 6 years, and spent several years in Malaysia teaching those subjects. I wrote a few books on those fields which were also used in teaching classes. I switched careers for a short time and became a marketing executive, as I mentioned, for a few different companies. I decided to come back to America about 5 years ago, and I landed in Portland. I now work as a mental health specialist for people with mental disabilities, and teach classes dealing with basic psychology.
I *love* studying philosophy on my free time! I’ve recently spent a lot of time with existentialism, and wrote a few simple introductory guides on the subject. Epistemology is another favorite of mine, including pessimistic induction. I also do a lot of other research on social issues. In 2015, I wrote a book on feminist theory. I decided to upload it online for free, as I have no intention of selling it. I just found the subject enlightening, and others can have a look if they want.
I like writing articles on modern day issues through the lens of questioning existence, facts, and knowledge. I simply love challenging ideas, having my ideas challenged, and learning new things. I also like learning new things in general, whether it’s academia from Cornell University’s website, or channels like Vsauce or Sci-Show. I sometimes write responses to such things, and I love having deep discussions.
However, I can’t say any of that, because every part of it, from what I’ve gathered, comes off as “intimidating”. Nearly everything listed there seems to be an insta-kill for any conversation I’m having with a woman. There are times when I can even see their facial expression and body language change as I talk – they start leaning back, arm are crossed, expression changes, and then they find someone else they want to go talk to just moments later. I’ve even had women get up and leave the table mid-sentence.
But… what else can I say? I don’t watch TV. I stopped watching a long time ago because trash-TV became so popular. I’ve never drank alcohol, never smoked, and never used… and I’ve found mentioning any of these things *also* nearly always elicits a negative response (like clean and sober is a bad thing). I’ve learned one thing I absolutely should not ever mention are my fitness accomplishments. I don’t include sugar in my diet, and eat mostly whole foods (spinach, kale, carrots, peas, etc). Because of this, and because I train consistently, I can lift around 400 pounds, and can finish 100 one-armed pushups in under 4 minutes. Sometimes my arms look too muscular and that’s a put-off as well, so I try to wear long sleeves to cover them up.
Sometimes I feel so frustrated; as if I have to now apologize for making good choices with my life. The stereotypical trope here is that men put women down for being educated or accomplished, but I kid you not – I can leave my apartment right now, at this moment, and come back in 20 minutes with a guy on my arm. Men love it when I talk smart to them. Moreover, I can take off the makeup, comb my hair back, use male voice – and women will eat it up too. It’s specifically lesbians that this always happens with.
Examples of Where It’s Gone Wrong
And there are so many times when I got comfortable and ended up talking casually about a given topic, or about myself, and it ends with a woman being totally turned off before I’m even aware. Once I was on a hike with a bunch of other girls as part of a meetup. I started feeling comfortable being with the crowd about a half hour in, so one of the women approaches me and we start talking. She talks a little about trying to start a business. I added that I new a little about business too, then talked a little about what I knew. After a few moments, I notice that she’s gone quiet… I look over at her while we’re hiking, and yea… I see I’ve turned her off. Alright. She was trying to start a business, so I thought I’d share some experiences, but okay. Wrong move.
Another time I was at a party, and the women sitting next to me said she was a “sapiosexual” (someone attracted to intelligence). I smiled and said I was too, so I started talking a little about what I’ve been reading lately from Soren Kierkegaard. She went quiet, her facial expression went neutral. A few moments later, she stands up and goes somewhere else. Maybe we have a different understanding of what “sapiosexual” means.
One of the most frustrating examples happened at the gym where I train. One of the women behind the desk had shown an interest in me for some time – I could tell by the looks she gave me, and the way she’d try to sneak in some short conversations when she had a chance. Now, she works in a gym. Remember that. So one day I saw a chance to stop and talk with her for a bit because there weren’t any customers around. We started talking about our training routines. I mentioned mine, and how I usually train, and the weights that I normally lift. Right after I said that, I saw her expressions totally change, and her attention went back towards doing menial tasks, excusing herself from the conversation. I was nearly exasperated when it hit me what had just happened. Because. You work. IN A GYM!!! What the hell are you actually expecting??? I train there all the time. Everyone sees me there like 4 or 5 times a week. Why would you not expect that I…. just…. you know what. Forget it. If I took off the makeup and used male voice, would that still have been a bad thing?
Over 3 years, dozens of meetups, and dating sites, the takeaway lesson for me was to just shut the hell up about literally anything I’ve ever done, studied, accomplished, the places I’ve traveled… pretty much everything about me needs to be kept quiet. So I’ve got alternative answers to the most basic questions I might get asked.
Where do I work? – In an office.
What do I do? – I type letters and stuff. Sometimes. For a big company.
Where am I from? – Originally born in Louisiana, then flew to Oregon, and that’s it. (I actually went to college in Georgia, and then lived in California, Alaska, and plenty of other states, including a few years in Malaysia – but yea this needs to be left out of the conversation completely)
What do I do for fun? – I like watching cat videos. And seeing selfies on facebook. (I’m not sure what else I can say actually. Maybe I also spend a lot of time going to meetups?)
Plans for the future? – Hoping to make more money one day. (Again, if I gave actual plans for the future, you’d stand up and leave.)
What’s my background? – Graduated high school, now work in an office.
What do I like? – Kittens and rainbows. And fluffy things? (What else am I allowed to like?)
Tell me about yourself? – um…. I mean… I like the colour pink? And sometimes I eat ice cream and watch movies and cry? I actually don’t eat ice cream *or* watch movies, but the “tell me about yourself” question is the toughest of all, because it’s so open ended, so I’m not sure what else to say, and I sure can’t say what I actually want. So when I get this question, I have to think fast. I usually mention something briefly about spending my time in the office, then turn it back over to them, and praise whatever they say next.
Using this method has actually worked…. conversations have gone from ending after 2 minutes to actually lasting a good long while. It’s also resulted in not one, but TWO followup dates from the meetups! Neither went very well, and neither resulted in a second date. One ended with a friendly hug (the one where you’re bent over and lightly patting the other person’s back), and the other ended with a handshake. But hey, this was still a pretty extreme improvement!
There’s been a few times when I’m having a conversation, and I *accidentally* say something – like the other day at a meetup where there was a clothing exchange, and someone mentioned a sarong (which is something like a Malaysian kilt). I of course know plenty about that, and started talking – then suddenly realized what I was doing and shut myself up. “Never mind!! Forget what I said!” Then quickly shifted the focus by mentioning how pretty one of the shirts looked. There’s been other times where I’m talking, and I hear myself talking, and it sounds like I know what I’m talking about, and I feel irritated because I realize I need to somehow turn that down several notches.
Sex Positive Portland
Now about the sex positive group I’ve mentioned earlier.
I’ve learned a good deal from this group. Whenever I asked anyone who claimed to be “sex positive” what that term actually means, the only answer I ever got went something like “I like sex”… which doesn’t tell me anything. Most people like sex. But this group has a pretty articulated definition that they teach new members. They also have membership divided into these steps you go through, and each level can last for several weeks. There’s 4 levels, and at level 1 (where I’m at now), it’s mostly just discussions about consent, how consent works, and really basic social interactions. Level 2 is where activities involving touch and physical intimacy (hugging) are introduced. Level 3 is anything short of full on sex, and level 4 is activities involving sex.
Now, when I’m with this group, I don’t even *try* to invalidate or minimize myself! Because what’s going to happen when I’m at level 3 or 4, and people are propositioning each other for “play”? In my entire time as a transwoman, no one has ever flirted with me, and I can count on one hand the number of times anyone has shown any degree of interest in me. Women are put off instantly if I sound smart. But here, I’m not going to hide it.
Is someone going to approach me and actually want anything to do with me physically? If that were the case, I’d be absolutely fascinated, and would really want them to explain to me why. What’s the reason? No one has ever wanted that. How’d you get passed me, well… talking normally? I would need a moment to really take that in and let it process.
But if no one approaches me, then am I going to end up being the only one in the room, sitting on the couch by herself, with everyone around me having sex? Either result is going to be a complete mind bender, and I can’t wait until I pass through level 2 and find out what actually happens.
So on lesbian meetups, I’ll continue the strategy that seems to have worked recently; remove anything that might present as intelligent, downplay myself by as much as possible, speak as though I’ve never done anything with my life, and give as much focus to the other person as possible. (If this is wrong, or if it can be improved, go ahead and let me know how please, that’s why I’m posting this.)
At the sex positive meetups, I’ll just be myself, and break the ice by briefly mentioning some thoughts I’ve had on an extrapolation quantum field theory in regards to the argument of free will, or ask if anyone’s familiar with the Trolly Problem (famous thought experiment in philosophy that examines ethics and moral dilemmas). Will probably be a hundred times more comfortable at the sex positive meetup. Am still really interested what’s going to happen when I’m at level 3, and who on earth is going to approach me for any kind of intimate encounter.
Maybe All Lesbians are Asexual?
It’s starting to get where I see someone like this, and I instantly feel it’s useless. What could I possibly say? I can ask about her just fine, but I can’t talk about myself, where I’ve been, what I do, what my thoughts are, what I do on my free time, my ideas, my opinions… minimizing myself and only talking about her will at least keep the conversation alive for a while, but there’s no way to go forward after that.
In fact, before I joined the sex positive group, I had actually come to the conclusion that most lesbians were asexual, and that being lesbian simply meant a general dislike of men, and perhaps only involved a preference for the company of other women. I’ve been to dozens of lesbian meetups. Looking at the way everyone generally conducts themselves at these things, if you did not know beforehand that this was a lesbian meetup, then there’s no way you could tell otherwise. I’ve been to straight women’s meetups, and there’s honestly no difference between the two. There’s absolutely no obvious signs of romantic affection or sexual attraction between other members, and certainly never anything like that towards me. I can put on all my best makeup, dress in my best clothes, and rarely does anyone notice. You do hear about how lesbian porn is made mostly for men, right? So it began to seem rather plausible that maybe lesbians really are just non-sexual, and any other ideas about them were just thought up by men. This started to change my views on gay marriage… why on earth are lesbians so anxious to get married, other than for some symbolic gesture, if there’s literally never anything intimate or affectionate that ever happens? I even got into some debates on social media about this. It’s extremely rare that I’ve ever seen two women holding hands, or kissing, or anything – certainly not at these meetups. And if they’re constantly scared away by almost anything I say, then it seems difficult to imagine how intimacy would ever happen in the first place.
Honestly, how would that even happen? And also… *when* does it happen? It’s been years now, and I’ve only recently managed to get a conversation to last longer than a few minutes. And that brings us to the incident that lead to this post.
I Finally Give Up. Please Just Explain This To Me.
See, I really have been doing research, and drawing from dialectical behavioral therapy, I’ve been putting together potential models and conversational structures that might elicit a positive emotional response from the person I’m speaking to.
Then I attended this meetup called “Conscious Lesbian/Queer Dating & Love Portland”. It was hosted by two PhD researchers on the subject of lesbian dating. Figured I might learn something. Around 50 or so people attended.
The discussion that followed was hopelessly alien.
Speakers: So, how many of us here have seen a woman from across the room, our eyes met, and we went right over to them because we felt that attraction??
Crowd: Yea!!
Athena: Wait…. what?
Speakers: And as soon as you meet you feel so attracted to each other that you’re just attached at the hip!
Crowd: (someone in the back) Happens all the time! (Everyone laughs)
Athena: No….. no, that… that never happens. Like, ever. At any of the places I’ve ever been. Not once.
Speakers: And you want to move in with each other on the second date, right?
Crowd: Mmmm Hmmm!
Athena: That’s not how this works. That’s not how any of this works. None of you are making any sense. Second date? How do you even get a first date?? How do you even get them to look at you??
Speakers: The real problem with lesbian dating, is that you fall in love so fast, you have sex, and then you’re not ready to build a long term relationship.
Athena: WHAT PLANET ARE YOU PEOPLE FROM????
—————
People from the crowd shared their stories of meeting women and instantly moving in together. After that…… I give up. I’ve put in hundreds of hours of research and trying out different methods. I am so utterly and completely lost. This just doesn’t make sense anymore.
If you are a lesbian, and you are reading this, please, help. Tell me how I can talk to you and not have you want to get up and leave. I’ve been to so many lesbian meetups and I’ve never even seen other people hooking up, so I really a just utterly mystified. I have to abandon the asexual lesbian hypothesis, especially after the meetup describe above, because I received so much direct contradictory evidence. I can’t bridge the gap between that many women having so many stories that everyone in the room finds oh so familiar, and what my own experiences these last few years have been like.
Anyway please do feel free to leave comments below. I’ve been single for 3 years now. I really want to know how I can change that.
Sense and Wellness 
Athena ~
Thank you for writing this. It sounds like a really difficult and somewhat painful process for you, which I have sympathy for. I am a cis female I’ve been looking to date for about a year now. It has been a difficult and confusing process for me as well, but I’ve focused on not letting it be painful. Out of 5 or 6 messages I’ve sent out, 1 will reply and she’s either feeling too introverted to meet or she’s “seeing someone who would be thrilled to know she’s going out with other women. (This makes me wonder 1) Then why are you on this site?! or 2) Is she just trying to let me down easy?) Twice now I’ve also had responses that someone they knew recently died and they weren’t up for going out. But then they didn’t suspend their profiles, which surprised me both times… I have had one woman no show and have met with a handful of women for breakfast or dinner, one of which led to more dates and then after a couple months her telling me she isn’t ready to date. I have felt different for most of my life because I am vibrant. I am animated when I talk, I love to laugh, I literally stop to smell the roses (and other things that catch my eye), I enjoy making a big ordeal over food I find particularly delicious…and I think that sometimes overwhelms some people. Recently I’ve decided to focus on not apologizing for it, nor to diminish it because I’ve felt shame and been squashed by a partner who didn’t seem to appreciate it.
I can only in a small way relate to your experience, so I don’t have words of wisdom. Just hope that someone will be brave and open enough to appreciate you for being you.
Thank you for your reply. I see this and think “Huh… well at least it’s not only me!” And that does help.
Hi Athena – I’m so sorry you had a painful, alienating experience at our Meetup. I’m also sorry you didn’t speak up about your experience (though I understand that could have been, and probably was, way too scary.) I think what we were referring to was that when lesbians DO get together, this is often what happens. But it’s also true that often lesbians DON’T get together, especially once they’re beyond their 20s. Something we talked about a lot on Sat. is the “lesbian sheep phenomenon.” With sheep, literally, there are many clear cases of gay male sheep (rams mounting rams) but no one has ever seen a lesbian sheep, because what an ewe does to indicate sexual interest is… just stand still. I think there are a lot of human “lesbian sheep” out there too, wondering why the other one doesn’t make the first move. So that may be part of what you are dealing with. Of course, transphobia may be another big part of it. In any case, I apologize that you didn’t have a helpful or connecting experience the other night. We send you our good wishes and you are very welcome to attend our Teleclasses too and speak up (or chat, if that feels less vulnerable) about your experiences and questions, if you choose. We are here to support all women-identified women who love women, or want to. In love, Ruth L. Schwartz, Ph.D., co-founder, Conscious Girlfriend
Hi there Ruth,
I actually found your meetup to be extremely insightful. It was one of the things that lead to the articulation of thoughts that allowed me to create this post. For me, it’s important to become aware to a better sense of how things actually are, and rather than only seeing things that agree with what I already believe. Enlightenment and growth sometimes means realizing that you’re on the wrong track, and that’s why I did ask for feedback.
I also don’t think there was any way I could convey the level of information I’ve posted here in a way that was sufficient, and that would not also totally distract from the purpose and focus of your meetup.
I wouldn’t consider myself vulnerable, and am very comfortable connecting over this topic, as I did by posting the link to your meetup group and having a discussion. I found your meetup to be extremely helpful actually, because I’ve been wanting to say something like this for a while, but didn’t quite have the words. Your class helped bring all the right words and thoughts to mind, and I felt extremely good and accomplished when I finally made this post. I also felt a great sense of relief and feel a lot less stress over this issue now. Your ideas about lesbian sheep are also interesting, and something that I’ve been thinking about over the last few days. I don’t doubt that your meetup group has helped plenty of other people too; just probably in ways different than it helped me.
If you want some harsh truth this could be enlightening stuff: https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/5kzlii/mtt_writes_long_essay_wondering_why_lesbians_wont/?st=IXBFIAG2&sh=4eb4138b
Thanks, but it appears the only function of that thread is to mock and make fun of a transgender woman who is having difficulty making emotional connections with other women (I’m wondering how many of these same people identify as feminist.) I’m asking for honest feedback, because apparently what I’m doing isn’t working.
Some items form the link:
>> He sounds like a homophobe
^^^ I’m a transgender lesbian… and yet somehow I’m a homophobe? I mean I’m perfectly okay with someone pointing out that I might be only voicing my frustrations, and that such a view isn’t correct. I’m even more okay with anything on this page being pointed to and told “Here’s what you’re doing wrong” – or – “This is wrong” and maybe “this is why”. In fact, that’s the entire reason I posted this. I wanted insight and the views of others to inspire some new line of reasoning.
But all I see there is name calling.
>> See also “she won’t have sex with me, she must be frigid.”
^^^ I don’t see anywhere in the post where I’ve indicated I wanted to have sex. I believe the bulk of this post is me saying I want to *JUST TALK* to women without them getting scared away and leaving. That’s all.
>> Just reading him waxing poetic about how amazing and educated and fit he is irritated the shit out of me.
^^^ I don’t think I’m amazing or greatly educated. I think there’s nothing at all that I’ve done that other people by the millions don’t do every day. But this only reasserts the problem I spoke about in the post – how do I talk about myself? When someone asks “what do you do”… what do I say? I can’t say any of the things I mentioned above, and have to resort to “I just work in an office”. If I say what I actually do, somehow, I’m “amazingly over-educated”.
How do actual PhD holders talk? If you ask someone who works in academia what they do, do they have to lie? If they say “I’m a professor” – oh no they’re amazing and educated! You’re man-splaining!
The next one down is the most ironic of all:
>> But what an insulting conclusion: “I’ve got to dumb myself down to date women who like women, because women are kind of dumb.”
^^^ See? We just covered that mentioning any of those previous items make me look over the top amazing. Yet toning it down is an insulting conclusion?
Of course that’s followed by:
>> Maybe they’re all just turned off because you’re clearly a straight man with very little self awareness?
^^^ I’m not seeing any truth, nor anything enlightening. There’s no helpful advice on that page, and no one taking the time to go through and tell me what I’m actually doing wrong – which I’m completely open to. It’s just people gleefully misgendering and insulting me.
Hi Athena – I’m so sorry you had a painful, alienating experience at our Meetup. I’m also sorry you didn’t speak up about your experience (though I understand that could have been, and probably was, way too scary.) I think what we were referring to was that when lesbians DO get together, this is often what happens. But it’s also true that often lesbians DON’T get together, especially once they’re beyond their 20s. Something we talked about a lot on Sat. is the “lesbian sheep phenomenon.” With sheep, literally, there are many clear cases of gay male sheep (rams mounting rams) but no one has ever seen a lesbian sheep, because what an ewe does to indicate sexual interest is… just stand still. I think there are a lot of human “lesbian sheep” out there too, wondering why the other one doesn’t make the first move. So that may be part of what you are dealing with. Of course, transphobia may be another big part of it. In any case, I apologize that you didn’t have a helpful or connecting experience the other night. We send you our good wishes and you are very welcome to attend our Teleclasses too and speak up (or chat, if that feels less vulnerable) about your experiences and questions, if you choose. We are here to support all women-identified women who love women, or want to. In love, Ruth L. Schwartz, Ph.D., co-founder, Conscious Girlfriend
Same sex attraction to other females is not transphobic.
http://www.theonion.com/article/area-mans-intelligence-probably-just-too-intimidat-33916
So this is an interesting article. Even though it’s a parody and social commentary, it could be interpreted two different ways. On the one hand, the man is supposedly too interested in his own intelligence, but on the other hand, the women are not able to socially navigate a simple interaction where a man says something they don’t like. In my own experience, I’ve seen women trying to police the language and actions of men (10 hour walk through New York, anyone?) far more often than men using education in the place nuanced socializing (though I’ve seen this too).
From the article:
>> “After I’ve been speaking to a girl for just a few minutes, she’ll usually start to get this look in her eyes like she wants to bolt and I can just tell that she’s feeling so intellectually inferior that it’s impossible for her to continue with the conversation.”
^^^ Here are some things that such a woman could do.
If he’s going on about a topic she doesn’t understand… why not ask questions? Like for example if someone came at me and said “You know, the Newtonian derivative of an oceanic wave is equivalent to the trajectory of a lunar cycle”, I might respond with “Hmm, I didn’t quite catch that. What does that mean?” Once they broke it down a bit, I might say “I see. So you’re really interested in that subject? Why does it fascinate you?” – then give the fella a chance to share his passion for that field of science, and acknowledge that he’s probably spent a lot of time studying it.
Another way you could handle it is saying something like “I’m not well versed on that subject” – or, just acknowledge what was said for a moment, then try changing the subject to something else to see if we’re both interested in having a different kind of conversation.
You could also try non-verbals. Maybe look away for a few moments, let your facial expression and body language indicate that you’re not terribly interested, then see if he gets the hint and let him try something else.
One thing I wouldn’t do is just get up and walk away, because that would be terribly rude, and the fella has not actually done anything wrong or objectionable. He’s just talking about a subject he likes. That’s all.
>> “I am able to speak confidently and at length about a wide range of subjects, so it’s probably hard for most women to follow along.”
^^^ Another interesting point. Perhaps it’s not necessarily what he’s saying, but that he’s going on too much for too long. I see this *plenty* from women – and in fact it’s something of a stereotype that women tend to talk and talk and talk (Edith Bunker from All In The Family). I might try interjecting a comment where I see an opening, or when I sense a pause somewhere, and say something like “That’s interesting – if I could interject for just one moment, I have some thoughts on what you just said”, maybe with a hand gesture and eye contact for just a moment to signal that I’d like a turn to speak.
Of course if I just sit there and do absolutely nothing, then he might not even *know* that he’s talking too long and not giving me a chance, because he thinks I’m attentively listening. Again I have girlfriends who do this too. Once they get on a subject, they just get excited and start rolling with it.
>> begins to expound at length on one of the many topics he is well versed in — such as Malcolm Gladwell’s book Outliers or the British graffiti artist Banksy—she begins to appear highly overwhelmed by his mental capacity and quickly grows visibly restless and distant
^^^ I might try “Oh I see, so who is Malcolm GLadwell again? I’ve heard the name… ah! So that’s who he is. And you like his material? What’s it about? Why is it important to you?”
As stated in the post, I teach social skills.
>> The 27-year-old, who graduated from Syracuse University in 2007, told reporters that he subscribes to The New Yorker magazine and keeps up with the news on a daily basis
^^^ It seems news events are really important to this guy. I might ask his thoughts on a particular subject and let him tell me his opinion. Men are people too, and it could be that he just wants someone to listen to him. And hey if he really does keep up with the news, then I might learn something. It’d be just like reading a news paper, only instead is a person, and could turn out to be a lot more fun.
>> Admitting that his remarkable mind can make him appear unapproachable, Walker told reporters that he has even taken to downplaying his formidable intellect during first dates in order to put women at ease
^^^ I’ve had similar experiences. If someone came up to me and began using technical language to describe something, then as a woman, I have the basic social graces required to navigate that interaction without any trouble, and wouldn’t feel at all intimidated or scared of someone just for that reason. If someone non-threateningly uses a slightly expanded vocabulary, and that’s all it takes to scare you off, then what does that say about you?
This blog….is really condescending. You asked what people might be seeing that turns them off of you, and that may be the answer – even the tone of your writing is condescending towards these women. I would be insulted if you told me that because I don’t share your particular interests, the only thing I must connect to as a woman is “kittens and rainbows”. I can tell by this post, the things you’ve chosen to say and not say, that you think very highly of yourself. In fact, I imagine this comment will just be dismissed because it can’t actually be a problem with your own interactions, because you’re so educated in these matters – it must be everyone else in the world that’s the problem, because it can’t possibly be that your education hasn’t actually prepared you for real life interaction. You seem to have already made your decision, that everyone else is just so far below you that you can’t talk to them without acting like an idiot.
Socializing with others, making relationships, that’s not about “doing research” or how many degrees you have. And just because these women don’t have the degrees or aren’t interested in quantum field theory conversation that they can’t participate in, that doesn’t mean that their interests are limited to “pink and ice cream”. It means that you need to learn the ways that women interact with other women. Because…there’s no polite way to say this, but it really stuck out to me reading this whole post – you’re interacting based on your upbringing as male, not as a woman. This is a very, very heavily male post. About impressing women, about not being capable of understanding how women relate to each other, about not having a single “casual” interest because you think your best foot forward is every intellectual thing you can think of. About self-confidence to the point of arrogance.
My point is that I’m a huge nerd. I work in a technical field, I spend my time learning new things. But if the way you speak in person is anything like the way you speak in this blog, I can guarantee you I wouldn’t be interested because I’d feel constantly looked down on, like I can’t speak about anything that doesn’t match up to your standards, like I couldn’t relate to you, like you think you’re better than me. And THAT could be why women give you a shot, and then when you start in on conversation they can’t relate to in the same tone you used in this blog, they lose interest.
Or, you could be right and all women just don’t want to have sex with other women because they’re not interested in you because clearly your sexual life is the center of the lesbian universe.
>> I would be insulted if you told me that because I don’t share your particular interests, the only thing I must connect to as a woman is “kittens and rainbows”.
^^^ Then correct me please. Given everything I’ve described, how should this go? If my original answers are over the top and amazing, and my revised answers are insulting, then how do I talk without saying the wrong thing?
>> I can tell by this post, the things you’ve chosen to say and not say, that you think very highly of yourself.
^^^ I don’t actually think highly of myself at all. I don’t see that there’s anything special about having worked in biomechanics. There are PhD holders in that field who are making new discoveries every year, and I’m not among them. Being able to lift 400 pounds is nothing. Fredrick Hatfield was able to squat 1,014 pounds in the mid 80s. Scott Mendleson was able to bench press over 1,000. I can’t even lift half that, and the *average* competitive lifter scores around 600. There are plenty of people who don’t drink or smoke. People fly overseas to other countries every single year.
These things seem so damn ordinary to me, that I have to bend my brain to see them as so over-the-top and conclude that the only reason I have to be saying them is that I think highly of myself. I’ve asked this before – if I can’t say that I specialized in a scientific field because it’s just too much, and I can’t say “I work in an office” because downplaying myself is insulting, then how exactly do you answer a question like “tell me about yourself”, or “what do you do”?
That’s my thing. It’s frustrating because NONE OF THOSE THINGS are even slightly impressive to me. My friends in real life think it’s neat, but none of them are overwhelmed just from the sound of it. I cant imagine what kind of life you’ve had, that simply having flown to another country is all it takes to overwhelm you. But again – if just mentioning it is definitely wrong, and downplaying it is definitely wrong, then respond with some actual advice on what I ought to do, rather than just posting insults and saying everything is wrong.
>> In fact, I imagine this comment will just be dismissed because it can’t actually be a problem with your own interactions, because you’re so educated in these matters
^^^ Straight from the post above:
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My reason for posting this is to gather information and feedback, and learn what I can so I can improve the situations I’ve been facing, in regards to dating. While support and understanding are nice, and it’s undeniable that explaining my experience will most likely also be therapeutic in a way, what I’m hoping for here is guidance. Ultimately, right now, I am totally and completely at a loss
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I am so utterly and completely lost. This just doesn’t make sense anymore.
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If you are a lesbian, and you are reading this, please, help. Tell me how I can talk to you and not have you want to get up and leave.
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^ I don’t know how to make it anymore clear that I don’t know what I’m doing wrong, I can’t figure things out, and I’m asking for honest feedback. You appear to be so cavalier in your response, so it seems that you wouldn’t have a problem also pointing out the errors and offering up some corrections. That’s what this post was for. I literally said that at the start of the second paragraph.
>> because it can’t possibly be that your education hasn’t actually prepared you for real life interaction.
^^^ Guess you missed the part about me teaching social skills for a mental health facility. And the part where I have plenty of friends who come to me for advice rather often.
So it could be that I’m genuinely missing some important nuance in communication. I mean the way men and women communicate is quite different, and there are a number of studies on the subject. Moreover, there are women who have what are considered a more masculine mindset, and men who have a more feminine mindset, and so communication styles can overlap. It’s also possible that a culture is at work within lesbian circles of which I’m unaware, and perhaps there are understood rules that I just haven’t learned about.
Surely if this is the case, I ought to be able to make a post on my experiences, and people who actually do know better than myself will chime right in and tell me, right?
>> Because…there’s no polite way to say this, but it really stuck out to me reading this whole post – you’re interacting based on your upbringing as male, not as a woman.
^^^ Interesting point. Which part of this post do you see as “male”?
If all you have is more insults, then for sure I’m going to disregard what you say, so please don’t bother. You appear to be making an honest assertion, so I’m asking an honest question. When someone asks me what I do for a living, and I say that I specialize in science… is it the fact that I specialized in science that sounds male? Is it the choice of words? Does “I’ve worked as a teacher” sound better?
It would help to follow what I’ve actually said in the post, and to not make assumptions. It appears that a number of readers have the impression that I walk up to a group of women, arms cocked to the side, chest out, and loudly bellow “HEY ALL YOU LADIES LOOK WHO’S HERE! LOOK AT ALL THE STUFF I KNOW!” – when that’s not what I’m doing and nowhere in the post is that even hinted. Again, like in one of the examples above, when I’m walking along with a woman, and we both start talking about business (she brings the topic up), and I happen to mention “Oh that’s interesting. I also worked as a business administrator once”, and then share a few of my experiences because she’s shared with me a few of hers – and then she goes quiet, because I appear to have messed up again… was I being too “male”?
Maybe I am. I’ve said several times that I don’t know, and am asking for help , so tell me which part of that experience (or any of the other actual things I’ve said) appear male to you. Tell me why they’re considered male. I’ll probably respond by saying “what about this or that woman (and give an example in popular media of such a woman) who does that? Is she acting male?” Then maybe you’ll have a well thought out and articulate explanation on gender roles and expectations, and I will have actually learned something.
… OR!
Skip all that and continue implying that I’m not really a woman.
>> clearly your sexual life is the center of the lesbian universe.
^^^ I don’t see anywhere in this entire post where I said my goal was to have sex with women.
What I’m looking for is an emotional connection. I want to be friends with a woman first, then if that friendship becomes a special friendship and we start having deep feelings for each other, and we’re thinking about each other all the time, then I want it to naturally turn into something more intimate. I want to be able to spend time in the company of the other person without having to talk, because we both just feel good being near one another and we’re so comfortable that it doesn’t get awkward. I want a relationship where we share interesting ideas with each other, and also challenge each other to consider different perspectives. At that point, THEN, maybe we’ll have sex. That’s generally how women want it to happen, and that’s one major difference that sets them apart from men.
Hope that clears some things up.
Well, you’re not a lesbian, you’re male. Lesbians are female homosexuals, so they’re not attracted to males, only to the same sex. We’ll be nice to the faces of the trans women who attend explicitly lesbian events, but you’re not going to get a phone number, let alone someone who wants to come home with you. I can’t speak for bi girls, but I know I’m constantly holding my tongue around my trans friends from the local LGBT center. They assume too much about our shared experience of womanhood and their ideas about women and femininity is often so backwards I have to stop myself from reminding them of their pasts as straight white men. What you bring to the table as a trans woman is an intimate violation. Mental illness in a partner is difficult to handle, and most conditions aren’t as upfront as sex dysphoria. More women will avoid you due to this fact. Maybe call yourself queer, befriend more bi and pansexual women, make an effort to consume more woman-created content to understand us rather than your own discomfort with masculinity (Kierkegaard is a male chauvinist, any “sapiosexual” woman wouldn’t take you seriously), and maybe? you’ll find a more receptive dating pool. Lesbians aren’t asexual because they don’t want to have sex with you? Lesbian social circles are incestuous – we’ve fucked everybody already, years later repeating the mistake, always looking for fresh meat. The fact you could assume we have no strong sexual inclinations for physical intimacy speaks to your own issues – your maleness. No lesbian wants that. Stop preying on our community to validate your self concept. We’ll all be a lot happier.
I’m a lesbian and I personally haven’t had problems dating other lesbians and I’m a pretty sexual person. Lesbians are people, and people like good listeners. You don’t seem like one. In every conversation, you seem to dominate the conversation. You say you talk about yourself and your interests, but do you ask and engage the other party about their interests and make an effort to listen to them?
Are you aware of how people perceive you from the way you talk, from the way you write messages, from the way you start conversations? First impressions matter a lot. If you’re not getting replies it may be because you’re doing something wrong right from the getgo.
“At any given lesbian meetup, I’ll speak to someone for 2 minutes (often times less than a minute), and they seem to get scared off. Admittedly I’ve only gotten feedback a few times, but from what I’ve been told, I’m somehow “overwhelming” and “intimidating”. I put those in quotation marks because I can’t for the life of me see how I’m either of those things”
this is your problem!! Multiple people have told you but you dismiss it. Why? The problem is with you and the way you talk to women and engage in conversation with them. The problem is not with the lesbian community. Self reflect on why multiple women have said this, why multiple women have walked away after several minutes of coversation despite showing initial interest. The problem is you.
“She talks a little about trying to start a business. I added that I new a little about business too, then talked a little about what I knew. ”
Sorry but most people would be put off by that. Maybe she didn’t want advice?? She probably thought you were being condescending. Maybe you should have asked her about her business ideas instead of making it all about you and your knowledge.
“Another time I was at a party, and the women sitting next to me said she was a “sapiosexual” (someone attracted to intelligence). I smiled and said I was too, so I started talking a little about what I’ve been reading lately from Soren Kierkegaard. ”
Again making it about you and what you’ve read and showing off your knowledge…you seem more interested in flaunting your knowledge instead of engaging them in conversation. You seem like a well read and intelligent person but these are not really things you talk about on the first date or the first meeting. And if you can’t have a normal conversation without always wanting to discuss or debate whether it is fitness, business or intelligence then you are not going to have a successful relationship. It is mentally exhausting to continue that kind of conversation constantly. When you are talking to women initially try to keep to simple topics like your hobbies, your job, your favorite books, TV shows or favorite movies and reciprocate and ask them instead of going on an intellectual spiel right off the bat. These are safe topics most people can relate to. If you’re unable to do that then maybe you appear boring to them.
I wish you the best on dating. My advice is to seriously look back and reflect on the ways you have communicated with women and why it is offputting (i showed my friend this piece and she says you come across as snobbish and holier than thou whether that is unintentional or not). It’s not a lesbian problem. It sounds like a personal problem. You don’t know how to talk to women on first dates.
>> In every conversation, you seem to dominate the conversation.
^^^ Where are you getting this from?
>> You say you talk about yourself and your interests, but do you ask and engage the other party about their interests and make an effort to listen to them?
^^^ Yes, I do ask them about their interests and listen to them. That’s how conversations work. They bring up a topic, I add a little, then they add a little, and it progresses. Occasionally I’ll share a little about how the subject we’re on relates to me, or I’ll have an interesting short story that goes with it. That’s how I’ve described most of my encounters.
Given how this works, it sounds like if I ever mention myself or any of my experiences at all, then I’m “dominating” and talking “only about me”.
>> Are you aware of how people perceive you from the way you talk, from the way you write messages, from the way you start conversations?
^^^ I have a pretty good idea. As mentioned elsewhere, I’m a mental health specialist, certified to work with the public, and I teach social skills at my facility. I’m very politically active, routinely engage in promoting civil rights, and was recently voted chair captain of my district. I’m also a member of Networking With Results International, which is a meeting of business leaders, and deeply involved with my local chapter. I’m extremely well known in my area, and I make friends everywhere I go.
Hence, why it seems that there’s a problem specifically with the lesbian groups (and whether or not they accept me as a woman), since no one else, anywhere else, ever seems to have a problem with me (something that I finally came to a while after I posted this).
>> this is your problem!! Multiple people have told you [that I’m overwhelming and intimidating] but you dismiss it. Why?
^^^ What I find interesting here is that even in your own copy-paste of what I said, I stated clearly “admittedly, I’ve only gotten feedback a few times” – and from this, you somehow got “multiple people” out of it, as though “everyone is telling you t his” when nowhere did I say multiple people.
But as for why I dismiss it, it’s because the vast majority of people I ask tell me I’m not overwhelming or intimidating at all. Everyone else, everywhere else I go, seem to be totally okay with me. I’ve even asked people point blank if they think so, and they’ve given me an honest look and told me no – not even slightly. This is what made it confusing – only lesbian groups keep acting this way. Think of some social events you’ve been to. Do people get up and walk away after just a few seconds of you talking? Now imagine that this doesn’t happen except when you’re with only 1 group of people, and it’s just that 1 group that keeps treating you like that, and everyone else is okay with you.
Then you find out later the answer, as it’s actually quite obvious when it’s pointed out after the fact… that the difference has to do with gender identity. Not everyone accepts it.
>> Sorry but most people would be put off by that. Maybe she didn’t want advice??
^^^ How do you get “advice” out of “I talked a little about what I knew”? You’re supposed to talk about what you know when a conversation comes up.
I mean a conversation goes something like this:
Her: So I have this business.
Me: Oh, what kind of business?
Her: It’s doing stuff online.
Me: Yea, that’s probably even harder than what I did. Paperwork is a nightmare. And managing employees can be tricky. So what kind of stuff do you sell?
^ Shortly thereafter, she’ll start to go quiet.
As with most people, you seem to be adding in tons of things I never said. A few people told me something, and in the next breath its “multiple people”. I add what I know to a conversation, and now I’m “giving advice”.
>> She probably thought you were being condescending. Maybe you should have asked her about her business ideas instead of making it all about you and your knowledge.
^^^ And that kinda brings us back to the whole beginning of this post.
I can’t talk about what I know – that’s giving advice. If my experiences ever come into this conversation even 1 single time, then I’m “talking all about myself”. Everything I think do and say is repainted so that it’s a negative, and I get this from most lesbians. It seems to be a style of thinking that I don’t get from other places. If I said I asked more details about her, you could just as easily add that I’m getting too personal or asking too many questions, or again repaint it so that I’m doing something I never actually said in the post.
>> Again making it about you and what you’ve read and showing off your knowledge… [in regards to: “so I started talking a little about what I’ve been reading lately from Soren Kierkegaard.”]
^^^ Okay go ahead and tell me what a person ought to do in this situation. Someone comes up to you, and says they’re a sapiosexual. Now, given that *SHE* is telling *YOU*, literally, “hey, I’m really attracted to intelligence” – definitely you don’t want to show off intelligence or knowledge, since that’s the thing she’s saying she’s attracted to. And you can’t talk about yourself either, so introducing yourself is out. You don’t want to mention what you know about sapiosexuality since that’s “giving advice”. Really, what do you say?
I mean I know what to say in literally every other group I go to, and I never have any problems. The inability to ever say anything right at a lesbian group is what inspired this post. And it seems I’m running into that same stumbling block again, so go ahead and share how this one should have gone.
>> And if you can’t have a normal conversation without always wanting to discuss or debate whether it is fitness
^^^ Go ahead and tell me how the fitness example described in the post should have gone too. Where exactly did I go wrong on that one?
>> When you are talking to women initially try to keep to simple topics like your hobbies, your job, your favorite books, TV shows
^^^ SO basically… talk all about me, me, and me. (Irony)
>> If you’re unable to do that then maybe you appear boring to them.
^^^ I thought I was overwhelming and intimidating? … you can be that, and boring at the same time?
>> i showed my friend this piece and she says you come across as snobbish and holier than thou
^^^ That might be because your friend is also reading something, then adding stuff that isn’t actually there. But I’d be willing to hear what parts sound snobbish if she can point them out.